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I have three boys and I hear this all the time. Like \u201cmen are trash, men suck.\u201d Is just like, just in the water. And I think it\u2019s incredibly psychologically harmful for this generation of boys to just go around hearing that over and over and over again. If this is feminism \u2014\u2014 \u201cCall men stupid in every possible way that you can.\u201d \u201cListen to me try to say the word \u2018trash\u2019 with my retainer in.\u201d \u201cMen.\u201d \u201cMen are trash.\u201d Then where does that leave men? I wanted to have a conversation about masculinity in a post-#MeToo world. So today, I\u2019m talking to Ruth Whippman, author of \u201cBoymom,\u201d a book about raising young men, and Frederick Joseph, author of \u201cPatriarchy Blues.\u201d Frederick, Ruth, thank you so much for being here with me today to talk about masculinity. O.K just a little table setting for where are we now. How would you describe the state of young men in this country right now. I think that we are in an abysmal state. I think the realities are we\u2019ve always had patriarchy at the intersection of capitalism and white supremacy, and how those things feast on one another and lift one another. But I think right now, more times than not, the role models that these young boys and young men have are not only divisive and toxic, but insidious and heinous. Disgusting, truly. I mean, the president of the United States is an alleged rapist. What does that mean? What does that mean? The popular thing that boys are watching is largely MMA. So I think we\u2019re in a horrible place. Yeah I mean, I would agree, I feel like young men are kind of caught between these two competing, but both harmful narratives. Like one of them is this kind of almost what you\u2019re describing this real caricatured masculinity, these things that have always been in existence. Like, tough guy, bulletproof man. But just like, taken to this caricatured extreme and you\u2019re seeing it almost on the left as well as on the right, but then on the other extreme, more from the progressive left, I think you\u2019ve got this shut up narrative, which is just like your problems aren\u2019t real. They don\u2019t matter. You have so much privilege, you have everything. Time for everybody else to have a voice and for you to be quiet. And I think it\u2019s just really hard to navigate. I think they feel shut down from all directions. Honestly, before we get deeper into things, I want to hear a little bit from each of you, just the highlight reel netgraph of how you would approach a conversation about masculinity. So, Ruth, you\u2019ve done a lot of reporting on the subject, and you also wrote a book about raising sons. Can you give us just where you\u2019re coming from when you\u2019re talking about masculinity? Yeah, I think when we talk about masculinity, we have to talk about patriarchy. And I think we see this as this system which harms everyone, including men. I think often people take a gender studies class in college or whatever, and they learn like patriarchy harms men. And then they\u2019re like, great, O.K, put that aside and then move on. Forget about it. And I know that when we\u2019re triaging these issues, is harm to men the worst abusive patriarchy. No probably harm to women and trans people and people of other genders is more urgent. But I think if we can see ourselves as part of a system of patriarchy that harms all of us, and we are allies in this fight, rather than men versus women, men oppressing women, then I think we can have a more productive conversation Yeah Frederick, you wrote a book of essays and poems called \u201cPatriarchy Blues.\u201d You also spend a lot of time talking to men in the world. Where are you coming from when you\u2019re talking about masculinity? Yeah, I think for me, I look at patriarchy in the same way that many people during the 2020 moment we\u2019re looking at racism and white supremacy. You can\u2019t dismantle patriarchy without an anti-patriarchy movement. And the thing that we were telling people was largely that there was a return on investment for dismantling white supremacy. There was a return on investment for dismantling racism. And that\u2019s my argument as well, for patriarchy. I tell young men all the time, you\u2019re not in these systems allowed to be a whole human being. The thing that you are entitled to they teach you is your rage, and then even that you\u2019re not really entitled to. They don\u2019t teach you how to cry. They don\u2019t teach you how to laugh. They don\u2019t want you laughing. They don\u2019t want you crying because they actually do, in capitalism, want to monetize that rage of yours. That\u2019s how you get the manosphere. And I think we oftentimes teach it as do you want to do like charity. You\u2019re not this isn\u2019t charity that you\u2019re doing for women by like dismantling patriarchy. It\u2019s not charity by dismantling misogyny. This is actually the work of self. Yeah, right. I really relate to that. I mean, I think as you were saying in my own thinking around white supremacy, it had to come to what do this is just being a narcissistic millennial in the world. But what do I stand to gain from dismantling white supremacy, a system that seems to benefit me in so many ways. And for me, the answer to that is the fullness of my humanity. And I really was thinking a lot when approaching this conversation about how do we do the same thing for patriarchy. Because one of the questions I think a lot of young men have is, what does positive masculinity look like. Like, I don\u2019t think that we\u2019ve necessarily we\u2019ve I know the image that the manosphere posits of masculinity, and I think it\u2019s one that also encompasses a lot of misogynistic ideas. And I know so many men who are not misogynists and who want to be living in a gender equal world, but who are still men, who still need an idea of masculinity that feels positive to them and how both have you thought about this question and how to answer it. And how do we get to a place where there are so few answers for it. So for me positive masculinity as of framework is not my preferred framework for thinking about this issue or what to do for young men, in the same way that if someone was trying to sell any hypothetical daughter like positive femininity instead of feminism, I think I would push back on that as well because I think it\u2019s already like setting the terms in quite a restrictive way that ends up slightly reinforcing gender stereotypes. So like, I think I would rather that we move towards giving boys and men like a vision of being a full person a full human, and rather than gender inequalities and being like, these qualities are masculine and these qualities are feminine and how do we navigate and pick and choose between those and what\u2019s the minimum amount of femininity that we can choose to in order to not emasculate ourselves totally. I\u2019d rather we\u2019re just like, O.K, just be a person these are minimum standards and minimum qualities that we expect from every adult. And they don\u2019t need to be different ones for men than for women. I think that and I hear that, and I think for me kind have to have a sense of positive masculinity only because we do live in the boxes of the society that we currently live in. I think that vision would be beautiful if it wasn\u2019t for the fact that we have femicide and all these different things. And I think there is so much toxic masculinity. And I hear boys all the time say, I literally do not know what it means to be a good boy or a man because I think on the one hand, all you see is these terrible role models who aren\u2019t role models at all. On the other hand, you have people saying what isn\u2019t good, but you have to tell people what can be good, right. Looking at race. And they\u2019re not a one for one, but you actually have to have positive ideas of what it means to be a decent white person. Like, and that was one of the things in my first book that I pushed heavily is that you can be a decent white person, and being a decent white person is not going to be the same as being a decent person or a decent Black person or a decent Asian person, because the systems and institutions prop up and lift and are owned by ran by and controlled by white people. So if the systems of patriarchy while again, you\u2019re percent right, patriarchy impacts us all in various ways. But men are the men are, men are the issue. In large part. Men are the issue in large part patriarchy. So I do think that we have this show with a decent man is one of the things that made me really want to have this conversation is that I just feel like I mean, everyone is siloed into their own social media spaces. But for me, when I\u2019m looking at social media, so much of what I see online and so much of what I hear women say is \u201cmen are trash.\u201d Sabrina Carpenter said the key to her songwriting is just to call men stupid in as many ways as you can. I really understand where women\u2019s anger comes from. I have lived it, but I also feel so much tenderness for my brother, for other men I know. And if I were hearing the same kinds of messages in reverse that were just \u201cwomen are trash.\u201d I wouldn\u2019t know how to begin to approach the world. And so I wonder how specifically on the left, because I think that there are different answers to this on the right, but specifically on the left, which is where I hear men are trash the most loudly. What effect is this having on boys. Do they hear it. Do they feel it. And is it empowering for women. Is there another way to be approaching this. I mean, I think from the perspective of raising, I have three boys and I hear this all the time. We live in a very progressive community and \u201cmen are trash, men suck\u201d \u2014\u2014 is just like, just in the water. And it\u2019s really, really hard when you\u2019re raising sons and they\u2019re young, they don\u2019t know the entire history of patriarchy. And nor do you want to explain that in every single moment. And it\u2019s like the justification, so they in a way, it\u2019s supposed to be punching up, isn\u2019t it. Like men have all the power, men have all the privilege. So it\u2019s O.K to call them trash. And it\u2019s not the same as calling a man. Calling a woman trash, which is punching down. But those distinctions are getting more and more abstract, especially when you\u2019re 12 years old and you\u2019ve never heard \u201cwomen are trash\u201d and you\u2019ve heard a lot of \u201cmen and boys are trash.\u201d And I think it\u2019s a really, I don\u2019t think this is helpful. I think it\u2019s really harmful. It\u2019s not equivalent to misogyny. They\u2019re not the same. But it is still like, I think, a real problem. It\u2019s really like a terrible negative. And I think it\u2019s incredibly psychologically harmful for this generation of boys to just go around hearing that over and over and over again. I think the reality is that women are entitled to a righteous and rightful rage. And this makes sense to me, right. I think that I\u2019m not a woman I\u2019ve never lived in the throes of the worst iterations of patriarchy. I don\u2019t have to deal with certain things. And so I just want to name that to begin with. But it reminds me of though, is a lot of parents not wanting young white children to hear, about the issues with whiteness. And the argument became and I\u2019m one of the people who made the argument, if Black and brown children are old enough at any age to have to suffer racism, then I think white children should have to learn and understand their place within racism. And I guess that\u2019s the same way I feel about the idea of misandry and whatnot. Is that my conversation with my. I have a younger brother. He\u2019s 14. We have a huge age gap, obviously, and I\u2019ve been having conversations with him about who boys and men are in relation to women since he was probably about 6 years old because I do know he\u2019s going to hear and see on the internet. \u201cMen are trash, men are trash, men are trash.\u201d And I guess my answer or my response to that is, I\u2019m going to tell you why. And so as opposed to putting the onus on women and whatnot, I\u2019m placing it on myself and I suppose other men as well. I don\u2019t think that the onus should ever be on the victim. I get conceptually how we got here. And so I just look at it like, I\u2019ll see the videos. This is not about me, right. This is not about me. You\u2019re not talking about me. I\u2019m trying my best to be a decent man. I\u2019m going to try my best to make a generation of decent boys to go back. Just a step to if on the left, what men are hearing is men are trash. And this isn\u2019t. This is actually, I think, related to what we were just saying. But if on the left, what men are hearing is men are trash, doesn\u2019t it make sense, then that the right is their safe space. And it makes me wonder. I mean, clearly like there is an increasing gender divide about how people\u2019s politics. Fall left or right, men are moving more to the right, women are moving more to the left. And it\u2019s only exacerbating these problems. And I think part of what I\u2019m really interested in is like, how does the left bring men back into the fold. I mean, when I was reporting for my book, I talked to incels in these incel communities, and they absolutely felt like that. I mean, they really felt like \u201cThere is nothing for m\u201ce outside of this. There is like, \u201cI\u2019m lonely and I\u2019m lost.\u201d And one guy that I went quite deep with in particular, he was really like, \u201cI would like to leave this community. I would like to seek help. I would like to find a therapist or talk to another person. But I\u2019m just so scared of hearing like, \u2018your problems don\u2019t matter. You\u2019re a white man. Everything\u2019s great for you. So, screw you.\u2019\u201d Basically from a therapist that I\u2019m not even going to look. And I think part of that was. Like self-justification. But I think there was something really real in that. And I think that he had been hearing those messages and it\u2019s like, yes, it\u2019s not the same, but it\u2019s also very real. And I think it is pushing young men towards the right for sure Yeah I mean, the right wing is a very. They\u2019re an intelligent collective of people. And I think that they understand human nature better than the left. There isn\u2019t really a pipeline on the left to lead you to the left. You don\u2019t have an Andrew Tate of the left. You don\u2019t have someone similar to a Dana White on the left, Conor McGregor, all these different people. And so I don\u2019t think that the left has created a strategy at all. For we have lost a generation of boys, generations of boys and men. How do we get them back. What do we give them to believe in. And who do we give them to believe in is. I think that\u2019s also really important. My friends who have very young kids have told me that, and this is so different from how it was when I was growing up. But they\u2019ve told me that when they\u2019re reading books to their sons, a lot of the narrative of these books there was a very brave, courageous girl and a boy Yeah and they Yeah and that these are progressive books and I understand where they\u2019re coming from. When I was growing up, I would only write stories with male characters because a male character was a blank slate, whereas a girl had so much to overcome just to begin to enter the story. But things have swung really far the other way. There are now a lot of books that promote feminism at the expense of young boys. And I\u2019m curious if you found that in your I mean, I think I don\u2019t know if the movie franchise \u201cInside Out.\u201d I think that\u2019s with the have you seen it. It\u2019s like a inside out. So yeah. So that was a really good example. I was watching them with my son and it\u2019s like this really complex story of this young girl\u2019s interiority and her emotional life. And it\u2019s this great portrayal of a young girl\u2019s emotions. And then you go inside her mom\u2019s head. Did you guys pick up on that. Sure did. And they have this complex interaction. And she\u2019s tracking her mom\u2019s emotions, and her mom\u2019s tracking her emotions, and it\u2019s incredibly sophisticated. I don\u2019t know if it was every time, but it felt like every time a man came on screen, they were like an emotional idiot. It\u2019s like you go inside the dad\u2019s head and he\u2019s like. Carry it all the way. And all the emotion avatars have just got, feet up on the desk and they\u2019re checked out and watching the game. And that\u2019s the joke. And I\u2019m watching this with at the time, 6-year-old son and thinking, what are we telling him here. Like, everyone has a rich emotional life apart from you and you\u2019re an idiot. And I was like, that would never pass. Like, if that was a mainstream like Disney Pixar movie, whatever that had a sexist stereotype about a girl, then we would not stand for it culturally. I think that some of the issue, goes back or rather goes to this idea of a pendulum swing, because when you\u2019re saying that, I\u2019m like what\u2019s so interesting. Because as a Disney buff, we did have \u201cSnow White.\u201d And we did have, \u201cSleeping Beauty\u201d and of even not only misogyny but the rape culture of something like \u201cSleeping Beauty\u201d even. And so I think now what has happened is instead of us having a conversation in our society about how we create something equitable, I think a lot of people are interested in, O.K, I\u2019m going to swing the pendulum in the complete opposite way. It\u2019s like hurt me. I\u2019m going to hurt you. And that you can see, I think directly in how the father or the boys are represented. You\u2019re like, well, yeah, I can represent you this way. Because look what you did with Sleeping Beauty to me Yeah I mean, speaking of the pendulum swing and thinking about how did we get here. One of the things I really want to talk about is the legacy of #MeToo, which I think was for me personally, an incredibly important movement. I was working at The Paris Review when #MeToo happened. The editor left at that moment. The culture of the workplace where I was working changed drastically. I have felt like an enormous benefit from that movement in terms of my ability to be taken seriously at work and to move through professional spaces. And I also think that there are a lot of things that we\u2019re feeling now in the culture that are the long tail of #MeToo, and we\u2019re almost 10 years out. And I think it\u2019s worth talking about because I think that this is also the moment when women began to feel and absolutely guilty of this, very empowered to speak very loudly about the things that men had done that had harmed them to a degree that perhaps now has just been flattened down to just all men are trash. And I\u2019m curious, Ruth, in your reporting, I know you\u2019ve written quite specifically about this, how you think about the long tail of #MeToo Yeah, it\u2019s a really complicated thing because I was like, thrilled at the #MeToo movement. And it absolutely named something that was so real in my experience. And this just like normalization of harassment and abuse and all the rest of it. And I think I understand it was just this groundswell of rage, but navigating that as a feminist while raising boys and thinking, all we\u2019re hearing, there\u2019s this micro-generation of boys that were kind of going through puberty around the time of the #MeToo movement, 2016, 2017, who are now like a voting age of college age. And they have spent their entire adolescence, in the shadow of this conversation, which has been framed very much as men are predators, men are harmful, men are trash, which much of which is true and so important to talk about. But I feel like there was this real piece missing in that conversation that has left a lot of boys feeling like shut down rageful disenfranchised, and unable to really find how they\u2019re going to make their way in the world. It\u2019s interesting, I think, that listening to the two of you reminds me how important it is to understand our different spheres that we\u2019re in. My sphere is very progressive, but also very black centered, very brown centered. I\u2019ve been lucky enough to be very, very much welcomed by deeply intersectional feminists. Womanists and so I think a lot of times, the conversations that were being had in the more like mainstream sense, which were largely led by white women. And then there was a reckoning around that because of Tarana Burke and Tarana Burke having been the person who largely started a lot of this work in many senses of the word. I had been a part of those conversations. I went to I was lucky enough. I went to Hunter College undergrad where Audre Lorde went. So these were not I went to a very I think Hunter College is 64 percent women. So I\u2019m just lucky to have been in these spaces where I\u2019m not the dominating person. But I do think it\u2019s important to name like those conversations in the mainstream sense aren\u2019t the only conversations that are happening. There was very much in my experience, welcoming and thoughts around not only like how some men have been harmed, but how trans people have been harmed, how queer people have been harmed, and things like that. I mean, I think that the conversations that I was hearing happen around me for me, were revelatory in the sense that I was realizing how universal the experience was of sexual harassment, of rape, of feeling held back at work based on the power dynamics around gender. And I mean, I think that was the moment for me in my life when I realized I didn\u2019t know any women who hadn\u2019t experienced this. Which is what #MeToo. the words, are about. But that consciousness raising of like this is not an individual, isolated thing. This is happening so prevalently was enormously useful. And then at the same time it left and it caused I mean, I worked as I was saying, I worked at a workplace where my boss left around this moment and the culture of the workplace changed, but it left so many of my colleagues who were men, white men who I really respected and who really to me, it was obvious respected women confused about how to act like I had one colleague who was like, I always take the interns out for drinks. Every year I take the interns out for drinks, but I can\u2019t take the interns out for drinks this year because it\u2019ll look like I\u2019m trying to get interns drunk and I can\u2019t get interns drunk. And he. And he was also like, and am I allowed to compliment your clothes. Because I like your clothes, but I don\u2019t want to get in trouble. And I could just see that he was really trying to figure it out, and I had real empathy for that because we were defining New rules, and the New rules left very little room for nuance. They were very strict rules. But this was something that I feel like anyone who has experienced any form of societal oppression understands that someone can compliment your clothes, and you can know that they mean that they like your clothes, and they can compliment your clothes in a way that makes you feel small. And it actually doesn\u2019t matter what words they say. It matters the intention behind how they say it. And I think across different forms of oppressed identities, this general thing can be understood. But how do you explain it to cis straight white men who have never experienced this. Yeah I mean, I would say definitely for teenage boys, I think there\u2019s this real fear among teenage boys at the moment. And I think it\u2019s contributing to this sex recession, dating recession, whatever you want to call it, where teenage boys are feeling very fearful of approaching girls. And in some ways that\u2019s good and right. And absolutely it\u2019s a correction to a very real problem. But I think it also does come back on boys of color as well, especially on Black boys. I found in the university context, I did some reporting on these Title IX proceedings in colleges and boys who\u2019ve been accused of sexual violence. And often these are really, really complicated situations. And I think that Black boys are disproportionately accused of sexual violence by white women on college campuses. And often these accusations are found to be, if not unfounded, then very complex. There\u2019s a lot of racist maneuvering going on in there. It\u2019s not just like the stereotype of like the white can\u2019t harass anyone he wants to anymore. But it\u2019s all this stuff is so layered and so complicated. But I really don\u2019t envy a teenage boy trying to date in this environment. It\u2019s interesting. I agree with so much of that. And I think that there is definitely institutional racism that ties to much of this. But what I would say is in terms of the white men at that time especially, I just as a cis het man, I just feel like I\u2019m not saying you, but I just I\u2019m not interested in infantilizing these people. Can run a Fortune 500 company, but you can\u2019t understand how to not do something, how to do something creative to take interns out. Who are women. I feel like a lot of white men suddenly became childlike during that time, right. You took over the entire world. You can\u2019t understand how to navigate during the #MeToo movement. I just right. I agree with you. And also, I just feel like there were moments at the height of this movement when I would want to talk about nuance, because I do think that there has to be nuance, this conversation. And the very word nuance was suspect. Like if I said the word nuance, it was as if I was being a rape apologist. And I felt really confused by that, because these don\u2019t feel conversations that can to me, can be solved by the extremes of Black and white. And I mean, I did feel my little brother was in college at that time and he came home being like, I\u2019m really trying to get this right. But they\u2019ve given us so many seminars and they\u2019ve said, if a woman is drinking, you cannot have sex with her. But we are drinking all the time. And so everyone is drunk always. And so I don\u2019t understand how to reconcile these two rules. And for me I was like, it is so much about your intentions and so and you, it\u2019s very hard to put a very blanket rule on things like you are smart enough to know if a woman is consenting or not. And we can really speak about what it looks like to have active consent. But instead, people were being given these very blanket rules that were unnuanced. And I feel like it has created a lot of confusion. That comes back for me, maybe just because I went to school for this communication. I think obviously consent, so on and so forth. But I think we can\u2019t assume intentions necessarily, because I think intentions change depending upon geographic location, age, all sorts of demographic things. I\u2019m walking and I give a head nod to another man and he\u2019s Black, we have an understanding what that means. If I do it to a white guy, he\u2019s like, what the hell are you doing. I don\u2019t know. I communicate what I\u2019m thinking. I communicate like again, I\u2019m not going to infantilize somebody, but I\u2019m also not infantilize women if we\u2019re communicating can give me your opinion on what you think is it\u2019s not even taste, but safe. Like, even as we\u2019re sitting here across from each other, from the beginning of the conversation, I originally said to you, I think you should go first, and you can tell me, I don\u2019t think I should go first. And so in many instances you have gone first. But I hope that I communicating that gave you the latitude to say like I agree or disagree. And I think that that\u2019s the interactions that I would want people to have. So it\u2019s not just like consent. It\u2019s so much more than consent. It\u2019s also active conversation. I mean, one thing that I will say, I think that we give boys in general, a very, very poor grounding in relational in communication, in social skills, in emotional nuance, in picking up signals in and that is something that starts from birth. There\u2019s a real difference in the way that we socialize girls to really track other people\u2019s emotions, to understand body language to understand what someone might be feeling to sit as their role, to act on what somebody else might be feeling. And these are things that are baked in so early that then I think by the time that kids get to college girls have this huge head start on this kind of communication and these relationships and understanding and caring what another person thinks and seeing it as their responsibility to track that and respond to it. And so, yeah, it\u2019s something that has to start much younger. And I think patriarchy robs boys and men of that, of those skills. Christine Emba wrote this really wonderful article in The Washington Post called \u201cMen Are Lost. Here\u2019s a Map Out of the Wilderness\u201d that if people who are listening to this conversation are interested in, I would highly recommend as further reading. And part of what she talks about is specifically, how do we create a leftist counterpart to the manosphere, and what does that model of masculinity look like. And I know you both have thought about this a lot. Ruth what do you think. I mean, I think it\u2019s many, many different things. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s possible to just say, O.K, here\u2019s the answer. Get a Joe Rogan of the left or an Andrew Tate of the left, because I think those attempts often don\u2019t really feel authentic. I think it\u2019s many, many, many conversations and individual acts and people coming together to talk about these things. And I think it\u2019s possible because I was just thinking look back at pretty much any movie from the 80s or 90s and you look at the things that they could get away with as completely normal when it came to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, which were just completely normal and that are not normal anymore that we have moved on as a culture when it comes to those issues, not by no means perfect. There\u2019s so much work to do, but we have moved on, and I think we can do the same for the way we think about boys and men. But I think it\u2019s lots and lots of little things all the time. Lots of people doing the work, lots of people thinking, lots of conversations like this, lots of work. Frederick does. And that just it\u2019s bit by bit by bit. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s one single solution to it. And I also want to just follow up on something that you were saying earlier, how you think about how you think about raising your sons to be good humans and how you want them to have tenderness, softness, these qualities that we generally associate with feminine traits. And I really want that for men, too. I want them to have friends. I want them to feel like it\u2019s valorous, to cry or be vulnerable. And at the same time, I think if we\u2019re fully honest, we don\u2019t really want a society where men are more just like women. Like there is value to having a society where there are men and there are women, and they are able to be in the grand scheme of things, different from one another. And so I\u2019m thinking really hard about what other messages can we give men that aren\u2019t just be more like women. I wonder if you\u2019ve thought about that? Yeah I mean, there are things that exist socially conditioned within men and women, but I think that again, they are socialized and conditioned. So I don\u2019t think that for example, tears. I cried during hamnet, just like the two women next to me cried during hamnet. And I think that what we have been taught is that me crying during hamnet is some oddity. And that\u2019s what I rail against. And I don\u2019t think that we have done a good job of propping up the people who rail against that. I\u2019ll give you really a phenomenal example. There was a conversation recently and about people going to this website, right. And it was like all these men and I think we\u2019re all very familiar with all these men. I know what you\u2019re going to this website. And it was like teaching them how to rape their wives. And I was wondering, just as I\u2019m watching all these proper grievances by women and people, I\u2019m like all these men are garbage. Absolutely and I was also like, where\u2019s the counterweight. Like, what are we actually trying to. I see all the rightful rage. What is the actionable thing here. Like, where are we leading people to. Because it\u2019s not enough to stop at the point of just saying these men are dangerous. Absolutely these men are frightening. Absolutely these men are disgusting. Absolutely what are we doing. What are we doing. What are we doing. But if you just keep if you just keep people in this perpetual state of anger, you can keep on writing about it. You can keep on making videos about it, you can keep on selling things pertaining to it. And people will click and people will talk and people will you\u2019re feeding the beast. You do not want people getting healthy. It\u2019s the same thing with patriarchy. It\u2019s the same thing with white supremacy. It all feeds capitalism. If white people are not great and they keep on doing racist things. More people sell books, more people click on articles, more people go to websites, etc., etc\/ It\u2019s a perpetual cycle of bigotry. And also that whole Epstein commentary, there was no real mainstream discussion of patriarchy and how that informs that it was like a lot of people talking about class and about wealth and about money and about power. But there was very little like naming of this systemic force. And just talking about it, there were and to that point, there was even with Epstein and everything that\u2019s transpired over the last few years. And maybe you\u2019ve seen something different I\u2019ve not seen a major push to dismantle or unpack patriarchy, to your point. And that\u2019s the thing I\u2019m saying. It\u2019s not like, oh, we are so angry and frustrated and in disbelief and harmed and hurt by what these men did to these girls. So where are the conversations. Because this is not just wealthy white men flying girls to an island. This is happening in your neighborhood. This is the whole system. Why aren\u2019t we talking about. I completely agree. So I know we\u2019ve talked about this quite a bit in various ways in this conversation, but I wonder if we can just quickly run through, what are things. What are traits and qualities if not of positive masculinity than of the kind of masculinity the left should be promoting as a counterpart to what\u2019s in the manosphere. One of my colleagues has gotten really interested in the subreddit \u201cr\/bald,\u201d where men just compliment each other. Men are like, shave it off, it\u2019ll look better. And then they\u2019re like, bro, you look great. Amazing and it\u2019s just like. And it is a very sweet corner of the internet, because it\u2019s one in which men just support and compliment each other through a difficult transition time in their appearance. And I\u2019m curious, what are those other like. So what are other qualities and traits of something that the left could be promoting as a vision for boys. Yeah, I think that male friendship and male bonding, it\u2019s got such a bad name because it\u2019s become associated with locker room talk and gross things. It\u2019s just that brotherhood that loyalty and courage and support for one another is something that\u2019s really lovely. And I think I\u2019m from the U.K. and I think there is a real culture of male friendship there in a way that I don\u2019t see quite so much in the United States. Maybe some of it is because of alcohol and drinking and those kinds of things, which obviously brings up a whole New range of problems. And I think some of it comes about from trauma boys being sent off to boarding school and that thing. But I think there is this real culture of male friendship and male bonding, which is very lovely, that I\u2019d like to say I\u2019ll give you a good example actually, right now, and I can\u2019t stand this team for various reasons, but the Oklahoma City Thunder, who were in the Western Conference Finals of the N.B.A. playoffs, are comprised of a lot of millennial and Gen Z young men, and the ways in which they love on each other is such a positive embracing of brotherhood, friendship and love for each other. I\u2019ve literally heard them say like, I love you. Thank you for showing up for me tonight. Thank you for this, thank you for that. And I think that we can be promoting that more, that there are great examples of young men and men in general who are not afraid to love on each other. Before we wrap up, I want to know one traditionally masculine quality you\u2019d want your sons or your younger brother to take on, and one that you wish they wouldn\u2019t. O.K, sure. So I think for the one, I mean, look, there\u2019s so many great qualities associated with masculinity courage and protection and strength and all the rest of it. But I think I\u2019m going to go for fixing stuff. So I would love for my kids to be able to have those skills, those old school masculine skills. So that and then there really wouldn\u2019t I think it\u2019s got to be emotional suppression, just like that feeling that you cannot connect with your own emotions. I think that\u2019s so unhealthy and harmful. And I really hope that my boys will be able to connect with their own emotions and those of other people. I love that answer. I think the first one would be being actionable. I think that we have this idea of men in our society historically, this thing is happening. I\u2019m going to jump in and try to do something. Can you be actionable about somebody saying harmed me. Can you be actionable about someone saying, I felt unsafe in this moment. So that ability to jump in and do the thing. I\u2019d love to see that in maybe more emotional and social ways. And then in terms of not passing down in of like stubbornness. I think that a lot of men have been taught that this personal manifest destiny, if would like. The entire world belongs to you and you just got to go out and seize it. And I kind of want you to stop and just listen to other people. Just like, stop. Just stop. Just stop. You\u2019re the only thing I think that you\u2019re promised in this world is the person in the mirror and what you do with that. And so, just stop and listen. Stop and listen. That\u2019s beautifully said. Ruth, Frederick, thank you so much for being here with me today. This was a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate it. It was such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
I have three boys and I hear this all the time. Like \u201cmen are trash, men suck.\u201d Is just like, just in the water. And I think it\u2019s incredibly psychologically…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":9082,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[7],"tags":[9533,5533,632,1391,57,1628],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\n